Crime & Punishment ???

    Criminal Justice
    BobLee
    February08/ 2016

    A BobLeeSays ….. WhaddaYouThink ???

    We’re trying something new here.   Your chance to SOUND OFF on an issue.

    In the wake of last week’s Louisville’s Self-Punishment for Ho-Gate, the question arises AGAIN of what is a proper punishment to fit a crime as regards “cheating” in Big Time College Sports….

    “If you were in charge…. based on your level of intellectual acuity”

    What Should/Could The NCAA Do Relative To Crime / Punishment.

    Crime Punishment

    RULE #1:  As much as there may still be a few reclusive Chinese somewhere in a remote province who need to see the word “UNCheats” 10,000 more times lets NOT get stuck in that rut today.  I do appreciate that battle cry is “oxygen” for many of you. … The scope of TGU is, as oft-noted, unprecedented in duration and malevolence.  Whatever and whenever a “final ruling” comes down, it will only throw more jet fuel on the discussion regardless of the severity or lack of….

    Lets talk about more typical crap today…. as if $10,000 worth of skanks is “typical”.

    Ol’ Roy, in typical O’ Roy style, did a long-winded sympathetic defense of “poor poor Rick…. I feel his pain blah blah …. having to tell his youngsters blah blah”.  Not a word about THEY FRICKIN’ CHEATED.

    If “penalizing kids who were not around then” is, agreed, “not fair”…. and with drawn-out investigations over several years that will ALWAYS be a factor…. what IS “fair” punishment to fit such “illegal recruiting…. and benefits” crimes?

    Some choices are:

    • Post-season bans
    • Fire Coach…. & Suspend him from any other NCAA gig for “X” years
    • Fine Coach “X” % of salary
    • Limit Scholarships for “X” years
    • Fine school “X” millions
    • …. combinations of the above.
    • Or something else ????Braveheart

    Let’s stop short of a Braveheart-style “drawn & quartered” UNLESS, of course, it involves “a hated rival”.

     

    Your Thoughts ???

    Yes… I will cross-examine your suggestions.  So think them thru before commenting.

    ###

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    BobLee
    • fayettewuf Reply
      4 years ago

      Great question. I listened to Dickie V expound on the self imposed sanctions at Louisville. He thought the administration had given in to public outrage. He claimed that Rick had taken and passed a lie detector about his knowledge of the hooker/recruiters. My reaction is that it does not matter. From the administration’s standpoint, his hires had drug the reputation of the university through the slime. Dickie was outraged that the kids on the team would suffer. I am not quite as worried about kids who signed with UL because of outlaw recruiting as Dickie V apparently is. But he apparently thinks that universities just something associated with sports teams.
      I do not think a program that achieves prominence using an unfair advantage should be allowed to hide behind the kids whether they were directly involved the cheating or not. That is what transferring is for. No post season and severely reduce the number of recruits would probably send most coaches used to winning away. The school is ultimately responsible for what its agents do, so no sympathy for the schools.

      • BobLee Reply
        4 years ago

        The up-line accountability all the way to Trustees would create a network of 4-5 admins with reputations and careers on-the-line… when an overly ambitious asst coach makes a dirty deal with a recruit to close a deal.

        • Doug Reply
          4 years ago

          UNC has solved any past or future issues now that a Chief Integrity Officer has been announced. ? Sounds like TCW 2.0 or name your version. What is really is, is a Chief Obfuscation Officer.

          • BobLee Reply
            4 years ago

            UNC has more of “those” than it does Asst Associate Athletics Directors.

    • Wolfdon Reply
      4 years ago

      How about multiple years of allowing a school to use only walk-ones from the student body to form a team(s). The only way the coach could leave would be to retire from coaching.

      • BobLee Reply
        4 years ago

        Doesn’t that penalize current scholly players? Saying NO new recruits for 1-2-3 years achieves your situation.

        • Wolfdon Reply
          4 years ago

          That would work too…..let current players transfer if they choose also.

          • BobLee Reply
            4 years ago

            I’m good with players transferring IF they were NOT involved in the infractions. I’m opposed to coaches skipping out to sign at a rogue school. Cliff Ellis (Clemson) did that when Clemson got slapped 20+ years ago. The NCAA has cracked down on coaches flying the coop as shown with Bruce Pearl and Kelvin Sampson. Of course, they simply get NBA Assts or ESPN analysis gigs to tide them over.

    • PatK Reply
      4 years ago

      BL, I get the same reaction you have about fining the school when I hear of some miscreant bureaucrat in the IRS or EPA abusing the federal gov’t and the “settlement” in the millions.

      The bottom line is, until you punish PEOPLE the behavior will continue because someone else is paying the fines.

      In both cases, the miscreants need to be fired and sanctions on the teams results be imposed. For the teams coaches should have long-term sanctions against coaching in the NCAA. Let them go coach in Belarus as penance. For the gov’t fire/fine the individual and remove a few more positions for everyone fired, just for good measure.

      • BobLee Reply
        4 years ago

        Thats all “monopoly money”. It means nothing to me, you or to whoever is suppose to write the check. It could be going to a secret account in The Caymans for all we know. Let me see a disgraced coach doing a “perp walk” carrying a cardboard box with his personal items with two burly security guards frog-marching him out the door. OR see a “bad boy” not able to suit up like PJ Hairston during his suspension prior to his expulsion. … I understand orange jumpsuits and barred doors slamming shut. … yes, it applies to government too.

    • Erv Reply
      4 years ago

      Many of your readers may not know that none other that the head honcho, Mark Emmert himself, left the door open for the death. Here is his exact quote from about five years ago, as reported by the Associated Press: “If, and I say if, we have very unique circumstances where TV bans and death penalties are warranted, then I don’t think they are off the table and I would be OK with putting those in place.”

      Can anyone even imagine a more “very unique” set of circumstances than the decades-long scandal at UNC-CHeat? Now let’s see if Mr. Emmert is a man of his word. I’m betting No.

      Also, the NCAA had better think long and hard (hmmm… maybe that’s what’s taking them so long) about their decision in this case. Whatever they do, they will be setting the absolute ceiling for all future sanctions. It’s unimaginable that any school will ever be able to hide years of blatant cheating.

      • BobLee Reply
        4 years ago

        Wonder how many others are hiding similar shenanigans right now, and holding their breath? If UNC gets any sort of pass on “semantics” then the NCAA is setting the precedent that “this kind of stuff is OK”.

        • Erv Reply
          4 years ago

          I suspect that administrators at every NCAA member school already have been going over their programs with a fine-tooth comb to find evidence of any similar wrongdoing… and if found, to quietly tack action to stop it in its tracks. Even without knowing what the results will be for the CHeats, they certainly don’t want their schools to be mentioned in the same breath as UNC-CH.

          • BobLee Reply
            4 years ago

            Nice thought. Don’t discount the “It could NEVER HAPPEN HERE….” mindset. Exactly what 99% of UNC admins/fans/alumni would have confidently boasted before they ever heard the word Nyang’oro. OUCH!
            .
            I know for a fact that Holden asked Dickie if everything was in order and got a “Righto Boss… The Carolina Way is solid as a rock – Hark The Sound!” … ouch again.
            .
            No difference for spouses cheating on one another… and business partners stealing from one another. I’ll Never Get Caught. 🙁

      • Doug Reply
        4 years ago

        The NCAA has agreed to implement all of the reccomendations listed here (A) once a cavity vaccine is discovered by dentists. (B) When Exxon Mobile stops hiding that carburetor invention that gets 150 miles per gallon. (C) When Joe Biden cures cancer and Rev. Barber loses 200 lbs, or denounces McClatchey or merges with The 700 Club whichever occurs first.

        • BobLee Reply
          4 years ago

          yep. 🙂 … sigh, sob, sniff.

    • Bob Reply
      4 years ago

      I understand why you have stopped watching college sports BobLee. If strip clubs in the athletic dorm and prostitution are considered acceptable behavior for college administrators then I have no choice except to join you. Winning without integrity, without any regard for rules or proper sportsmanship is unacceptable. I watched in amazement as Roy was not fired but given a raise and extension post Wainstein report. I guess when they start allowing golfers to kick their golf balls out of the bunkers I will stop watching the Masters and the Opens. Later BobLee.

      • BobLee Reply
        4 years ago

        Like eating an elephant… “one bite at a time” … big time college sports did not get to this point yesterday or last year. It’s been trending this way for several decades. Trustees sold out to Fat Cats who tell millionaire coaches (who know NUTHING!) to WIN OR ELSE and colleges build Hindenburg Hangars to impress semi-literate 17 y/os… find me “a hero” in any of THAT? … Is “race” factor? “Race” is a factor in EVERYTHING going on in America.

    • Allen W. Smothers Reply
      4 years ago

      The only real penalty is to sanction coaches… Show cause penalties for 10 years and scholarship reductions for 10 years, because the coaches know that the sanctions for cheating is worth it if you win national championships, which will pad their bank accounts… but what the NCAA has to do is shame the university to its core by calling the university and its administration either ignorant fools or bold faced liars… because that’s what the coaches are!! I’m sick and damn tired of hearing the head coaches say they’re completely shocked by all the cheating going on or the criminal activity going on that they had no idea about! That is bull-jive!!!!! The NCAA should ask the school’s fan base which would you prefer your head coach be, an ignorant fool or a bold faced liar because they are one or the other and if that’s not a deterent enough, then they deserve the death penalty.

      • BobLee Reply
        4 years ago

        Are you in favor of penalties for ADs and Chancs too? If an AD knows his career is in jeopardy he will keep a sharper eye on his coaches… Likewise a Chanc.

        • Allen W. Smothers Reply
          4 years ago

          Without question … if the chance and AD know their livelihoods and reps are on the line… no question the coaches will actually KNOW what’s really going on in their program… And maybe admit that they do!!

          • BobLee Reply
            4 years ago

            I used to do a stand-up routine about Swofford or Dickie giving Dean his annual review !!! Telling Saint Dean he needs to improve his time management skills and take shorter lunch hours… 🙂
            .
            Imagine Dickie “supervising” Butch Davis or Goofy Roy ??? Dickie is an extreme example as the Ultimate Empty Suit. How many Superstar coaches see their AD or Chancs as their “boss” or someone they answer to ??? The ADs and Chancs would treat that supervisory accountability differently if THEIR jobs were at stake.

    • Dick Gray Reply
      4 years ago

      UNC deserves the death penalty for any and all sports that had any connection with TGU (I love that phrase by the way). Otherwise, there will never be a case that merits the death penalty. And the lesson will be if you are going to cheat, cheat big time (beyond anything imaginable) since the rewards will most likely outweigh the penalty. If athletic teams get the death penalty, I assume the schools will handle punishment for the coaches but all coaches (head or assistant) involved should get a show cause for the length of time the death penalty is imposed – perhaps even longer. Otherwise (and even if) you risk serial offenders like Larry Brown – I wonder where he learned to cheat big time like he has done, at three schools and counting.

      There is no valid argument about punishing the players who were not involved, any more that letting the children or grandchildren of thieves keep the ill-gotten gains from their parents and grandparents on the plea that they, the children and grandchildren, did nothing wrong. It appears the law school has as much influence over there (they did hire Gene Nichols, first as dean, you know with a salary designed to defeat poverty) as did the Boxil run ethics center. Strange how those things work out. How about the schools, coaches, and players who played by the rules (unless you accept the antithetical position now chanted by The Carolina Way cool-aid drinkers that Everyone Does It*) and suffered as a consequence of cheating (now it appears it may also involve misuse of LD/ADHD diagnosis and drug dispensing in addition to the academic fraud, cars, parking tickets paid, ad infinitum).

      I wonder if the to be hired Chief Integrity Officer will be allowed to look back and take corrective action based on recent (and decades long continuous) sins of if the CIO will, like Mr. Weinstein, will be directed to limit her/his focus as directed by the powers that be (just look forward not backwards). If so, why would anyone want the job (unless it is paid on the athletic department scale) and, more importantly, what would anyone give a rat’s ass what the CIO says about integrity in Chapel Hill.

      This could go on at length but I will stop here. I hope it is okay to pander to the webpage owner by mentioning Gene Nichols.

      *lots of whinning that everyone does it but zero proof that ANYONE has even come close to the shameful actions that have occurred in Chapel Hill.

      • BobLee Reply
        4 years ago

        IMO… it won’t be TDP but it will be “severe” and it will have “my buddy Art” and other Disciples of The Cult of The Carolina Way going full bat s*** crazy. Roy will have to be sedated and kept in a foam-rubber room for several months if not permanently. I see multi-year sanctions for WBB (who cares) and MBB. Lesser sanctions for FB as UNC FB was already punished for the Butch/Blake crap. And a BIG $$$ fine for the University.
        .
        I don’t have inside-info just a gut-feel. Too many people across the country are watching and waiting.

    • Doug Reply
      4 years ago

      Unless there are institutional and administrative penalties beyond the coaches involved I really don’t see much changing. Harshly penalizing, presidents, chancellors, AD’s, etc in addition to the coaches just might improve hiring practices and dissuade some from detrimental behavior. The same chain of responsibilty should include players involved in felonious activity. Bottom line, there should be no Sgt. Schultz defense allowed whatsoever from anyone. If you don’t know, you are not competent to perform the job. I also like the idea of a red flag for a period of time to prevent coaches or players from jumping to another school to avoid penalties and the penalties should be retroactive. This should be spelled out in every coaches/admins contract.

      None of this will ever occur until well after Hell freezes over in the next ice age. Your cannon fodder will be endless in the interim. 🙂

      • BobLee Reply
        4 years ago

        Some of those are “rights” guaranteed to citizens and can’t be arbitrarily ignored. Hitting ADs and Chancs as well as coaches is a GREAT IDEA. Case in point is Clueless Dickie. If a head coach is responsible for “on his watch” then ADs and Chancys should be too.

    • Old MacDonald Reply
      4 years ago

      To state the obvious, the punishment has to be bad enough to “dis-incentivize” taking the risk of getting caught doing the cheating in question in a future cost-benefit-risk analysis. IMO, it has to be a lot more than what is currently being meted out.

      • BobLee Reply
        4 years ago

        Not unlike punishing a child for misconduct. “Think about this the next time you sass your mother….”.

    • TJ Reply
      4 years ago

      You hit most of the buttons. The only thing any administrator/coach fears is loss of exposure and loss of revenue. Not necessarily in that order. Cutting staff salaries commensurate to revenue loss seems just and effective. Scholarship reduction and post seaso bans have been tried and I do not know how effective they are.

      A question for you, I know the NCAA has a rules committee and an investigative arm but do conferences have similar departments? Perhaps, hitting the conference and subsequently the member schools would keep all involved more concerned with the bad apples that always appear. Loss of bowl revenue percentage and The basketball tournaments would shock and awe all.

      • BobLee Reply
        4 years ago

        Never heard of a Conference tribunal. I’m sure there’s some sort of standards of conduct but no specifics.

        • Old MacDonald Reply
          4 years ago

          In the early 80s the ACC “tacked on” some additional sanctions to Clemson over and above what the NCAA did. I’ll give you three guesses which school (supposedly) led that effort.

          • Allen W. Smothers Reply
            4 years ago

            Ooooo… oooo… ooo… I know, I know, I know…. and I asked John Swofford if he would request the same “extra” punishment for his alma mater and he tap danced a jig until Ms. Yakola ended the presser…

            • BobLee
              4 years ago

              So, you suggest: Removing anyone from the “jury process” that has any direct association with the “accused”? Sounds like a good idea. 🙂

    • D Moore Reply
      4 years ago

      BL,

      I am extremely leery of this whole “self-imposed sanctions” thing. It seems a school might be willing to throw a current team under the bus, in order to avoid future sanctions and the resultant impact on recruiting. I must admit I hate it for those Louisville kids that they are paying for Rick’s offenses.

      I think the head coach should be punished, regardless of what kind of cover (i.e., plausible deniability) he uses. That punishment should include suspension and loss of pay, and that punishment should travel with him. Beyond that, I like future scholarship restrictions. If a school wants to self-impose sanctions, that is well and good, but it should not count as “time served” in order to avoid future sanctions.

      DM

      • BobLee Reply
        4 years ago

        Agreed. Hit the coach HARD in his pocketbook… and his assistants too by a %. AND it follows him for X number of years. I also like a multi-year scholly reduction.

        • DrVinnyboombatz Reply
          4 years ago

          Lengthy postseason bans must happen to discourage this kind of activity in the future. Vacated wins, especially if they are also vacated championships would also be a deterrent for cutting corners later. Recruiting restrictions and scholarship reductions should also help.Returning financial gains from postseason appearances in which ineligible participants were used is also appropriate. All of these are what we should be talking about here in a few weeks or at the most months.

          • BobLee Reply
            4 years ago

            $$$ fines even BIG ONES don’t mean much. Fat Cats quickly foot the bill and no real harm is done to Athletics or The Institution. Recruiting / scholly restrictions DEFINITELY hurt and for a longer time than the length of the sanctions. “Forfeiting Ws” is also meaningless. Forfeiting “banners” is symbolic but fans will still brag about them regardless.

            • Allen W. Smothers
              4 years ago

              EXACTLY… only longterm sanctions are deterents… taking away past wins or titles is simply symbolic window dressing that no one acknowledges and fines/salary reductions are worthless too, as BL said, fat cats who want more Ill-gotten gains will continue to fund it

            • BobLee
              4 years ago

              So recruiting / schollie restrictions over 2-3-5 years HIT HARD IF the restrictions are heavy enough, based on the violation.
              .
              “Three too many text messages to a recruit” is NOT equal to “running a whorehouse in the jock dorm”. Post-season bans in either FB or MBB certainly “hurt recruiting”. Any sort of $$$ fine is meaningless.

            • Erv
              4 years ago

              I agree that $$$ fines in the amounts used in NCAA sanctions so far have not been a deterrent to fat cat schools. If the NCAA really wants to get serious with the CHeats, a fine equal to gross receipts from the previous two season’s football and basketball probably would get their attention.

            • BobLee
              4 years ago

              Paying for a $20,000,000 recruiting gee-gaw takes about 8-10 phone calls for a UNC or an NCSU. Maybe just 2-3 for Duke or Stanford. … The “OUCH Point” for a school’s pocketbook depends on the school and its deep pockets. What fans/alumni care about is fielding competitive teams to beat rivals… affect THAT and you have their attention. … Too many Chancellors are so ignorant of the realities of their sports program as to be useless in policing them. They rely on ADs who are, in turn, intimidated by “famous” millionaire coaches.

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